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Sustainability unwrapped a conversation new podcast about responsibility, ethics, inequalities,

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climate change and other challenges of our times where science needs practise to think about evolve and how to make our society more sustainable.

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One podcast at a time. So welcome to another episode from this City podcast,

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where we talk to different companies about how they work and operational human rights issues in their own operations.

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And today, I'm super glad to welcome our ranking in from bottom league,

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who will be here today talking about how public works with business and human rights.

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Welcome, Leah. Thank you very much. It's a very nice and nice to be here today.

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Really, really glad about this opportunity. Yeah, and of course, we are super happy that it's you here today,

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because I think many of our listeners also know that you have a very extensive experience in Finland,

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both regarding business and human rights and CSR at large.

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So it's a real privilege to talk to you, but I think you are also in a very good position actually to reflect on the first question I have to you,

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which is the question that when I think looking back at questions around in my rides,

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I go back in my own research almost 20 years now in CSR and perhaps 10 years on in relation to human rights issues.

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And one can surely say that human rights issues have not really been super visible, at least for a long time.

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In in, in in the Finnish context and the whole debate,

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I feel it is now sort of gathering steam and you see a lot of new actors on on the scene and a lot of new

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business who I've at least never seen in the context of business and human rights discussions in Finland.

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So why do you think that it is right now, like today,

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there is this particular attention being paid to questions that are on business and human rights.

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I think this is a very, very good question, and I would feel it's nice to kind of reflecting backwards because yes, it's a kind of a journey.

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But but why? No, I think that it's been now previous around three to five years.

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But the really the increasing has been or the topic has been really increasing and starting to became game on the high,

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higher level on the agenda of the company's sustainability and CSR agenda.

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Obviously, it's been there a longer period.

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Also from the perspective of really from the social compliant and worker's right things that you need to put the risks on there.

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But as as 10 years ago, when that, you know, United Nations human rights guiding principles were launched,

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that's that's only then 10 years ago that the relation to that business started to come into the discussion,

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and it made mainly with amongst the professionals and and academia and those.

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So I think that was the kind of starting point.

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How also the professionals into the company started to look at it more holistically, basically,

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and trying to start to understand what that is to really mean as a comprehensive model.

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And it took some took some time. So, so basically now.

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But between three to five years, it's been really broadening in in a way that that you need to have a proper,

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comprehensive management model in the area. And I think it's been eye opening.

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Also, when it to the climate issue has been increasing,

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we have been starting to understand also that these these issues are interlinked to each of this basically

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and that that human rights issues are not always just far away somewhere in the the risk countries.

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We are much more aware nowadays about issues and topics which are also in our own societies.

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So the topic is coming closer, basically, and that leads to the issue that it is starting to become more and more in in a daily operations,

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also that you start to look at it from different angles, basically.

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And when you manage to Buddhism, they attend the kind of that.

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Yes, this is a key part of your overall sustainability.

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Then it leads to the way that OK, but how we how how we put the frameworks from here, how we measure it, how we manage.

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And then we come to the kind of these kind of benchmarks and mental toll that takes that we saw the best practises.

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Yeah, exactly. And this brings me nicely to to the following question that as exactly as you say that you know these these things in,

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especially in Finland perhaps really went into the agenda, of course, after the UN jobs.

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But then some years went, went by and so forth.

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And let's put it this way that prior to 2012, when when going to this kind of business and human rights events in Finland or abroad.

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One challenge for people like myself and perhaps others as well was that most people there had kind of.

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A background, really, wait. You know, the legal side that they were human rights lawyers almost or any sort of lawyer artistic background,

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which was a very stark contrast to, you know, the Finnish CSR field going back a little bit longer,

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where there was also a challenge for people such as myself when most people had like kind of an

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environmental engineering background and spoke in a very particular manner about sustainability.

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And now it was a very sort of legalistic framework.

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Or at least it's you need to be very precise when talking about human rights issues.

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And I think for many business people, also challenging because it doesn't really start with the business.

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It starts usually with the victim and the victims and those who are affected, and that sort of makes for a very particular language.

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Now this is a very long bridge to to my questions, and some our listeners are not finished and might not know.

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Know your own background. So what is your own background in terms of, you know, working with this question?

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Do you come from an engineering background or a lawyer background? And how did you end up working with human rights in the business context?

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Thank you very much for that question. Yes, I do have an engineering background and from my educational background, from environmental engineer.

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But how do I describe it myself? I always say that I'm I'm a very people centric human human engineer in that way, and it's good.

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It's been always there that kind of seeing the interplay between the people and the planet and basically that we can't look at separately,

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for example, the climate issue and the human right. Because, for example, increasing the climate risks are increasing human rights risks also.

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But but my background definitely a 20 years I've been working with the sustainability area.

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But with the social issues, 15 years also started to also 15 years ago started to develop kind of from the contract point,

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the requirements for the suppliers, how how to monitor the supply chains, what kind of tools to use there.

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And that led me into the path also into my career that I have been in the international platforms developing the

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global tools that there are some companies we could use same same kind of a code of conduct and auditing models.

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So I have been now I have had a privilege to work over ten years,

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one of the biggest global business organisation developing human rights trade with purpose.

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So nowadays I'm vice president of the Board of Operate in Brussels, representing two thousand five hundred companies globally,

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really improving the human rights in the global supply chains, developing joint advocacy trainings for suppliers in the countries.

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So that has been one one trademark specifically bear and then, which I'm really proud of also is that around a year ago,

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I was elected to all support of the Finnish human rights delegation and kind of the eye opening that it is important that you see also close,

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not just the far away that we also recognised. What are what are these topics in our own communities and societies?

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And like I said, it's not any more strictly kind of that you have either risk countries or not.

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It is the areas and sectors that you need to recognise issues and that that that's the point.

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And that's my my my background there, right? And again, very, very nice sort of intro to the following question, which is that again,

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we have listeners here who are not from from Finland and might not know what kind of company by Oleg is.

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So what I think many people in Finland recognise the brand and the company.

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But can you tell our listeners what, what kind of companies probably and what is particular about the human rights

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risks and human rights issues that that a company can in public sector has?

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Yes. Thank. Thank you very much.

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And the public face of this year, a one hundred forty five years old family owned company food and beverage companies.

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Many Finnish listeners, I'm sure, recognised it from the good coffee for coffee.

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But we are actually food and food and beverage companies, or we have our own operations in 13 different countries.

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And there is the umbrella of different kind of a brand we have.

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Coffee is the. But we are the European market leader in Tex-Mex sector tortillas.

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Basically, we are producing customer customer plants and then we have for the future plant bullet or to call

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that green in our our portfolio also so very broad umbrella of different kind of brands there.

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And like, say, operating in 13 different countries.

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But what is linked there related to the human rights and interesting there that this is really value driven

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company also and the owner's ambition for the for the people well-being and planet well-being very,

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very high that we want it to be the frontrunner in the area, that they're taking care of the business,

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that it's it's good for the future generations to and it's good for the farmers in the 18 countries basically producing the raw material.

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So in that scale, Bolick is buying around 2000 different raw materials from 80 different countries,

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and our products are sold in 70 different countries. So our supply chain value chain is quite extensive.

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Basically, from that point of view, and if we look at the world map where with the raw materials sourcing countries,

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we are coming to the developing countries more or less South Central America, Africa, Asia, where the spices are coming.

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So there is a very big variety of different kind of areas.

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And the background for us is is,

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is is really that there's this very strong commitment for the for the people well-being and driving the the human rights.

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And we have a long experience basically working with the coffee sector with the farmer communities that the kind of state taking care of the.

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Supporting that they're increasing they well-being of of of livelihood.

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But there we see also that the what is really the challenge.

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That's how climate change is approaching and what kind of impact that have to the societies in April to out of produce, actually coffee.

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Coffee also ended in a few suborder.

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And if you look at the spice sector in Asia, then from the human right point of view, it's also to the families and farmers well-being.

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Definitely one one of the area linked that this child labour. They're also one of them.

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And one of the key key areas and then also the the women's right and engagement to the decision making.

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So these are some, some some of the topics from the main areas we have recognised and we hope we will come back talking more more

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in-depth about these these kinds of risks so that you have spoken about that as an organisational scholar,

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I'm always interested in the question about how different companies in different way organise internally around these,

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these questions of CSR and human rights. So how is it that at BOLEK, how are you organised?

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Do you have a separate unit for CSR issues or how do you integrate it into every, every part of the operation?

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Or how do you work? Yes, definitely.

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We want to work in a way that this is Typekit, but part of the company culture and DNA that that that on all employees,

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different departments have a role to play and integrate it into they their roles and so on.

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So obviously, with the human rights, the sourcing is playing a really key role and they have been taking a really active role of driving these issues.

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Basically, we have been changing our operating model in previous year to kind of a one polic

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approach from the different business sectors to the one one public organ organisation,

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and we are harmonising our processes. And now when I also join company little more than a year ago, a year ago,

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we have now centralised sustainability theme there, you know, as a part of one of the key business business functions.

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And our role is to lead, identify and lead these initiatives at the company level.

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And previous, a couple of months ago, we made the latest changes that we also integrated the small team who are responsible for

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developing our sustainable sourcing practises into our company level sustainability team.

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So, so from this perspective, we are developing the company level metrics, the management model policies.

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We are looking at the plan and making the.

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That's which are the best tools to use and really being there consulting and helping

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our our sourcing to deliver also and have a dialogue with our partners and.

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Taking the ownership, no, now my question relates to this, but again,

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I think you are well positioned to to to reflect on this because you have such a long experience both with human rights issues,

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but also the sort of thing you see as our sector at large myself coming, you know, from a kind of educational education.

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Background one.

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One thing that I think we see in the inner city, but also elsewhere, is that perhaps in Finland and elsewhere, you know, business people,

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managers, they struggle a little bit with the sort of the kind of vocabulary that comes out from, you know, from the human rights discourse.

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Again, because it's very specific, all the terminology needs to be very, very precise.

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And what you report on is not really driven as such by, you know,

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the business discourse and what is interesting from from the perspective of business.

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So my question is basically that if you think about your team and your organisation and what kind of skills would

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you say that that is good for employees to have in terms of dealing with with business and human rights issues?

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And what is it that you, for example, within Bountygate and and you are in your position, look for, you know,

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you employees that that should and can work with with these kind of issues in your sector, basically.

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Hmm. Very, very poor and actually interesting.

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Interesting question, because definitely the the needed skills and capabilities are changing also all the time,

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and it's a little bit interlinked about the which kind of evolution of states you are with the running of these.

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Basically, if you are about to start a kind of a model,

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how do I start to integrate this into my contract from the from the compliance point and what kind of auditing model?

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Then you need the skills and capabilities in the company who has a really good or a background about about this,

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that what need to be defined good with the kind of policies and the things like that and about

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the experience really conducting and being what the auditing model is on different standards.

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Basically, when you are coming up higher basically and you are,

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you are building up the comprehensive model more or less a bullet on the desk charts at sea level or so as a company level,

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then you need the capabilities that having a dialogue with the stakeholders, basically having listening, really in-depth discussions there,

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and they can also input and translate that into the internal company language that is one of my my really key learnings

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from previous years and and translate it into the very practical level is that how and where we need to in the how,

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what is the kind of transformational leadership there, basically,

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and that enables enables you to to handle it in the board level from both operational and strategic level.

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So for example, in my team, even I have a certain role to play here.

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Then we have a specialist running with the audits and human right head of human rights, basically in integrating with with the sourcing.

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But then we have a development manager who is looking at from the policy point of view,

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what kind of a change is we need to do into our policies and contracts based on also their increasing customer requirements.

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And then and we want to keep one key learning for me has been really also to to translate it into the

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into the practicalities kind of that if you need to understand also the risks and mitigate them.

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So there are still challenges for us that how to evaluate likelihood and things like that.

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But if you are an enabler to integrate this into the normal models,

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how the companies business people are used to look at the what kind of a template risk management processes.

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If you enable the bugbear that is a one success story,

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but also visualise for them that they need to change their thinking a bit because normally

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they think always that what are the risks for my business from the external world?

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And in this particular sector, we are always looking at what kind of risk and harm we are.

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Coursing through our business to extend hand to the people and that need to be very clearly visualised in the beginning, and that helps, right?

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And I think this is also something that is this is a very important point and very often missing,

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I think also from a kind of base understanding of business who are just getting into these questions in any sort of structured way.

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In a sense, you need to turn on its head this this thinking around risk to a certain extent because in the human rights discourse,

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it's not about what are the risks to the company.

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The starting point is really in the language that what are the risks from from the perspective of those who might be affected by it?

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So you need the emotions to think from from that perspective, and that can be, I think, a very, very challenging as such.

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So yeah, and a really interesting also what you said about different skills.

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It's it is very, very complex, complex thing.

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And I think this kind of holistic, holistic view that you talked about would probably become increasingly important as

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these things become more strategic in the sense that once they really become strategic,

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also the need of skills changes a little bit.

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Now that brings us to the first question that relates to one of these more specific concepts that is really at the heart of human rights discourse,

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business and human rights discourse. So what are drawing on the UN guiding principles and that is the notion of due diligence.

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And here for our listener listeners, due diligence in a sense, is quite a broad concept.

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It means that the business identifies and needs to assess what their adverse human rights impacts might be and then take

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in such insights integrated into their own business and then really try to track how effective these measures are.

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And then as a loss that really communicates how they work with it and use communication part was, for example,

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what it was was looking at how often these companies deal with them, but on a very operational level.

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Yet we need to be somewhat on the surface due to time constraints on this podcast.

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In broad terms, how does poorly work with the implementation of due diligence?

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There are there are a few key parts how I describe it.

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The second thing is that where are we actually at this moment on this part?

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But but how we work that the first thing is that that we form a very clear view and

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understanding of the current state where we are basically in this kind of work.

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It helps that we have this also external benchmark what was like the safety, safety, safety evaluation.

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And it also gave us the external kind of evaluation on there.

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But that clear view and understanding of our current status that the company level policies are there ethical principles,

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supplier code of Conduct, commitment to the U.N., United Nations Declaration Business and Human Rights.

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Then we look at that. OK? What kind of tools we we have at this moment to start to work?

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And what are we already doing that in our, for example, sourcing that supply a question?

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I raised requirements there or its model, but then also that launching that when we are looking at this overall, also from from other different,

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very different raw materials and sectors that do we need to join to the collaborative platforms basically also to make more more impact.

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And and so this is the one element then then the second one in in our journey is that defining to talk at 10X

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since we really want to integrate that into the annual phases and also as soon as we saw the key focus areas.

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Typekit also ended the company strategy. For example, for the next strategy period,

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we have integrated into the company strategy that the sustainable sourcing

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of spices is one of the key key strategic initiatives for the whole company.

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Basically, that that that the main volume spices should be coming from the very forward.

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Externally verified sources was starting to really build piece by piece Kathmandu elephant like I said,

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basically in India, the concrete accent to the shorter term.

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And then I think the third one is also to find the inspiration for further development and achievement, basically.

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Remember also to cherish that what you have been achieving the steps that clear

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with the next steps and have a dialogue with others also take the learnings.

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Basically, I think for that purpose is people's interim.

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Very interesting. I have an earlier experience of looking at the global results from the benchmark.

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But in these sectors, OK, you are definitely looking first that the European companies, how our resolve is there.

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We knew that as a as a first time, there still were quite lower level off of points.

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But what was what was really good that basically from the really the concrete actions, the results were good.

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But then looking at the totally different sector, companies like who in Finland got the highest course and things like that gap we have.

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Can we learn from each of this basically?

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So these are the main elements and where we are actually at this moment, we have been the forum, like I said, that we are harmonising our processes.

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Basically, we are investigating internally that the good ways are also good learnings and good models, which we are working with, for example,

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with the coffee supply chain transparency and starting to build up that delivery to these practises due to other raw materials and sectors.

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So maybe I could summarise in that point of view there.

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Yeah. And and this what you touched upon also brings brings me to the next question,

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which is that, you know, you said that bowling is a family owned company.

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So of course, the structure and how close the leadership is to this kind of question is a little bit different than in some other companies.

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But still, I think the challenge for for for many companies who make these kind of issues more and more strategic is also how, you know,

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the different departments that work on these things on a day to day basis, how they communicate up to the board level or the top leadership.

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And here, I think there is this kind of true struggle because it's not as we and or mental

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issues that there are very clear sort of key performance indicators that can be

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used and what kind of metrics makes sense without you needing to have in-depth

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knowledge yourself as a sort of a top top manager or board board level member?

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So how how how do you at at Powerlink, what kind of metrics do you bring to the to the board level or to the.

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Top management to make sense of this, what kind of KPIs do you use internally as the kind of key you signify?

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Yeah, that's true. I still keep your eyes on key metrics are irrelevant to and we are able to find them.

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But talent comes when we dive deep at the operational level that that building up the comprehensive

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global risk management for very different raw materials to have a proper due diligence.

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That's how we measure the likelihood, basically and look at how we can compare the likelihood data behind them.

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But at the company level it is.

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It is two or one of the key. We have to look at that by 2030.

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All the raw materials we are, we are using in our products that if they are from risk, areas need to be externally verified.

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That is for for a long term target. And for that we have been you have been analysing the current status holistically reported

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that altered the report and we we have defined it that which areas are also verified?

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What are the second like now focussing on spices?

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And we put the annual targets there that the metrics that what percentage of the volume of the raw materials in that specific raw material need

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to be verified in an annual basis and then sourcing together with sustainability build up to build up to concrete roadmaps for for for them.

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This is a very practical kind of lead in a similar way, like you lead any other business initiative.

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But but the but at the same time, we identified that that bit the global scale and with the due diligence,

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the challenge comes that how in depth you go when you do the kind of a proactive risk assessments about

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the possible adverse impacts that how what kind of a general databases you can use the research.

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We have a lot of possibilities to develop.

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Still, the global intelligence and data to be used and integrate it with the kind of data you have internally from your own businesses.

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And I think it would be super interesting into the future that some harmonised that from the scientific and different global organisations,

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that you would have intelligence data about the risks and then you could harmonise it in a way that OK.

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And I know specifically the area and my supplier and practises what would be the risk indicator for them.

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And I think that's that's this kind of a future reason where we used to work together.

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Right. And you also now mentioned sort of certifications and sort of standard setting organisations.

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And I think one thing again, we saw in safety and again,

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this is nothing new because other research has shown the same is that many companies are very,

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very reliant on on the standard setting organisation, how they make sense of human rights.

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To the extent that I think some companies perhaps do not actually in-house have had very almost any basic,

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even understanding of the terminology that comes to it,

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that really the sense making is really mediated to a full reliance on on standards and and then

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not perhaps realising that the standards themselves can have certain sort of blind spots.

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But at the same time, we understand that harmonising and that they have a very important role.

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These these assets as organisations in very complex supply chains.

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But how do you internally at a power league look at this balance that having a kind of an in-house understanding and then, you know,

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the role of the standard setting organisations and multi-stakeholder initiatives and so forth, how do you see that interplay?

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Mm-Hmm. You need both. You need both areas.

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I strongly believe that if you strategically focus on something, you need to have a good in-house capabilities, definitely in that area, too.

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And that kind of enables you to also take the long term approach because this is definitely area of continuous improvement.

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At the same time, you rely on that and develop the verification systems and use in different kind of a certification.

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At the end of the day,

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it is any how how you walk through and partnership with your suppliers and with your partners together making that kind of idea that,

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yes, this is continuous improvement. We are not afraid of anything happening,

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but we will help and we we will we will find out the solution for that in-house, in-house understanding capabilities.

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It is really key. But then you also need to be in touch in.

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Did the collaborative platforms find out those which are relevant where you can have a bigger impact together with the others dialogue with the NGOs?

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Definitely. But for example,

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Bolek in the era now we are member of the armoury also where there are globally retailers and important companies there we can do together.

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By developing the auditing, we can have a joint advocacy work.

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We can organise trainings globally that that's how what gives us the scalability and impact to work with others.

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But then site specific part of the Sustainable Spices Initiative,

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we can focus on that sector issues also and with the International Coffee Partnership memberships,

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brings us the platform where we meet the other coffee coffee companies initiate really the community programmes into the orating countries also.

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So both set ups are needed, right? Right.

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So I think one one comment and here I'm not particularly talking about safety.

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I'm talking also about what what I've heard from that sort of global bee results

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and what what the companies are saying when we're seeing that there is.

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So that one comment that sometimes here is these companies saying that if we would have known that this was being measured,

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we would have published this, but then from year to year, you don't actually see that big.

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I mean, of course, you see an incremental improvement. And it's an ongoing work.

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I mean, it's very hard to reach the highest point. But what do you feel that is the main challenge from your organisation or your sectors?

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Point of view of publishing in information? Is this that you previously said this in, you know,

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deciding how deep should you go into these questions or are there other issues that

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make it very challenging to to publish information about these human rights aspects?

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Mm-Hmm. Yeah. There's a difference. This is interesting, really interesting.

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It's a kind of what you populace, but the other thing from the transparency point of view and accountability that joining the discussion

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basically and then it's really important that you have an in-house capability and knowledge on the areas,

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then you are more you have a more concrete actually to join the discussion.

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And I think these things are more relevant. They are begging us to step by step together, improving the issues together with the stakeholders,

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but that also the reporting point of view definitely important to be be transparent,

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that there really is more kind of a balancing how in-depth you go, which which which level Typekit put the data and information because anyhow,

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some of the questions are already that there is the data quality is not good enough,

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which we might be internally in a company is worried about is is it really that we can we can state with this figure because some,

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some of the uncertainties and from the monitoring results,

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it is how in-depth you go because then with their supply chain partners, always that who owns the, for example, data of audits and results of that.

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So it can't be just that using something, but.

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Different angles for for for that and from public point of view,

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I think that we we are ready and we want to be into the platforms and having into the really also in-depth discussions, right?

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And you mentioned no platforms and also you know that it's not only about reporting,

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which brings us to another concept that is very key in human rights discourse.

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And that is that the notion of of grievance mechanism and this was another way.

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You know, when you look at the different companies in Finland, where some companies had very clear of grievance mechanisms, how do you work with them,

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whereas others had had some grievance mechanism, but clearly not open to to all stakeholders broader,

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perhaps for employees, but not the stakeholders at large?

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So how do you work with that with grievance mechanism and what kind of grievance mechanism do you have at your your in your toolbox?

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In the longer term, we identified this is the area for us also to further develop at this moment,

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we have a grievance mechanism, which is for internal public workers globally.

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And we definitely see and recognise the value to have a grievance and the model for for hope

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and fodder for the stakeholders in the value chain at this moment with the longer term.

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We are also interested to look at what could or could be the collaborative solutions for there, because at the end of the day,

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it's good to also understand that get the best, best practises and out of it that what kind of models works.

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And this is kind of what we are also trying to achieve through the international collaborative platforms that,

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for example, I'm for it, that they're developing their jointly, the global grievance mechanisms, right?

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And this then brings us to the so-called third pillar of human rights and business, which is access to remedy.

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And I think you can see that there was only one company in both sets that had any sort of or at

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least publicly informed how the work around grievance mechanism ordered them to clear the way.

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So what are your thoughts about this?

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This question? I mean, no. And I mean, how do you see it in the immediate future where it might be going into sectors such as,

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erm, that remedy practise and grievance mechanism role there or.

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Yeah, sorry, I misspoke.

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Again, needs to be clear, I meant I meant to talk only about remedy, and I mentioned my remedy, easy remedy going, yes, remedy going.

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Also that that. I also believe that for the remedy practises, the may be the biggest impact also comes true.

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Maybe the joint activists because of global supply chains, they're really much interlinked to the others.

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It's a kind of a challenge also in the practical level that the whole puts what kind of

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input for the remedies if something is further down in the supply chain because also always,

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it's realistic also to understand that it's good that the different players also take their own ownership on the issues,

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basically that you can't go above someone there and do the.

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But but it depends on the remedy actions that are you directly linked or contributing or a direct link?

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Basically, we still need to define the basket of good practises for for for for those.

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But. But I think it's it's.

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It's good enabler with the global platforms also to make those actions together.

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I think it's not the for our sector, but he is to go what happened in Bangalore,

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this kind of that companies all together started to do actions, their remedy, remedy actions.

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So yeah. And of course, when you were talking to you about remedy just for our listeners,

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that, of course, that brings also a kind of third actor into the equation,

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not only these multi-stakeholder initiatives that I was talking about or the companies themselves,

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but when you are talking about remedy, it usually means access to legal legal means and legal frameworks.

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So this sort of relation to the national state or particularly the government.

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And then if you are talking about contexts where the government themselves might not be of keeping systems,

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then such as Bangladesh was was mentioned here. And how how do we understand this?

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This remedy remedy situations are very, very complex.

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It is still quite complex and need need more framing.

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Definitely. Also also internally, I think in certain cases, we are quite well aware when it's very concrete and practicalities.

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If you find something which is linked to challenges and access in your own supply chain,

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what to do then together with your suppliers, then it's it's more easier.

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You can start initiate some, some mitigation projects into the community countries,

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but then the broader picture is kind of that link to the governments.

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And then it's it's important to have a political level joint actions out of a disease with the power that.

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Right? And again, now we have spoken a lot about different challenges and the kind of perspective.

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But I shift now the question more. I know you haven't been working at public for for a super long time,

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but still you have probably achieved some some changes or seen some changes at about the time that you had been there.

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So when looking at your time and your team working with these questions at Bali,

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what what do you think the main achievement or what kind of achievements are you most proud of that you have achieved?

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I think got a couple of questions which I'm really proud of.

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First of all, it's it's super exciting to start there where that where there is a really willingness to work with this issue,

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basically that that that people business functions and they want to take the onus IPS.

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They see that this is really important and they are proud of it, that bollock work with this area.

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But what I'm bringing in is the kind of also the common language on this that that how we harmonise the area,

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how we steal a little bit, increase the level, how we scale our actions that it's a comprehensive.

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And at the same time that what kind of a new tools we need.

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What I've been brought in also to kind of leverage the toolbox.

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We have been joining the some of the global platforms now, like the Sustainable Spaces initiative.

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And I'm sorry basically that our experts also learnt more from from other us that we have a

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we have a really possibilities to to scale up our issues and we have defined the focus areas.

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Some of the key key metrics, KPIs where we start and especially what I'm proud of is that we have been taking a quite strong stand on for you,

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a level human rights and environmental due diligence legislation that was also last summer.

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We were we were signing the letter together with the Business and Human Rights Centre

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and some of the multinational global companies calling for excellence from from you.

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And that is and again, this just brings me to the very last question I have, and this is, in a sense, this landscape of governance.

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You completely correctly pointed out that we might say now that the common EU directive or legislation around business and human rights,

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which is moving forward. At the same time, we also see various national initiatives moving forward.

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We saw in Germany very recently the national laws sort of taking steps forward in Norway.

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We also saw similar steps. And now when the Finnish government did not fall, we can assume that the.

390
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:27,690
This sort of ratings in the government programme around these, these things will also move forward,

391
00:47:27,690 --> 00:47:36,200
so how do you see this governance landscape where it is and where from your perspective,

392
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:46,540
it should go because it's of course going to be a mix of both these private and emphasise the national laws and and the EU laws.

393
00:47:46,540 --> 00:47:56,300
So how do you see the interplay between these? Yeah. There has been I think the national initiatives has had an important role to play.

394
00:47:56,300 --> 00:48:05,840
Basically, I think that that increased the pressure also for for pushing this up to the EU level discourse and importance.

395
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:16,040
I think it actually happened quite fast. Basically, from the from the final solution and from the public point of view,

396
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:24,080
I would support the EU level approach on EU level legislation basically because from the practicalities point of view,

397
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:31,700
what we already see now we have recently, we have our customers and we are running businesses in those European countries

398
00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:39,260
where they already have a national let's just licence basically in a Netherland.

399
00:48:39,260 --> 00:48:47,390
UK also the Modern Slavery Act. There are different kind of approach and we are producing different kind of statements

400
00:48:47,390 --> 00:48:55,820
and reporting to the to the customers and and and and industrial organisation for them.

401
00:48:55,820 --> 00:49:04,700
So to be able to also have an harmonised approach from our policies and practises and reporting standards.

402
00:49:04,700 --> 00:49:11,110
It would be really good that that the final solution is the EU level approach.

403
00:49:11,110 --> 00:49:19,690
Yes, of course, at the same time, we know in a sense how EU level especially is it's really a, how would you say,

404
00:49:19,690 --> 00:49:27,400
a very complex when it comes to finding, you know, both realistic solutions but also workable solutions.

405
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:35,590
And we see, for example, you mentioned yourself the French law under UK law, which of course have have its own strengths.

406
00:49:35,590 --> 00:49:46,490
But you can see that they are perhaps also the result of very long and complex negotiations that they are missing, perhaps certain parts of it.

407
00:49:46,490 --> 00:49:51,670
So how how how effective do you think that EU law can,

408
00:49:51,670 --> 00:50:03,610
can be to address on an operational level these kind of challenges that we have seen and not repeat and perhaps deficiencies that we have seen,

409
00:50:03,610 --> 00:50:07,870
for example, in the UK law, especially there?

410
00:50:07,870 --> 00:50:09,640
And I say especially the UK law,

411
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:16,390
because it's very hard from research standpoint to evaluate these laws that have not been in place for a very, very long time.

412
00:50:16,390 --> 00:50:21,520
So we can look at UK and France to a certain extent to look at, you know,

413
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:30,040
problems with that law and how they can be remedied or or taken into account when looking at EU level models.

414
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:40,430
And how hopeful are you that there will be some teeth innocence in an EU level of regulation?

415
00:50:40,430 --> 00:50:48,570
I believe that process is is ongoing and that there will be a there will be a solution.

416
00:50:48,570 --> 00:50:56,550
I think this is a momentum to do it and there is also a force forces going off that what to change change.

417
00:50:56,550 --> 00:51:09,330
And one shift has been happening in previous three years that there are a lot of companies and now all is supporting a level approach, basically.

418
00:51:09,330 --> 00:51:14,970
And I think the key key there is that everybody understand that in certain extent,

419
00:51:14,970 --> 00:51:22,480
we want that it works in a way that it really puts the level playing field basically there.

420
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:27,520
I believe in that, that if you put the mandatory due diligence process,

421
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:33,700
that would also kind of that brings everybody and you need to start the journey,

422
00:51:33,700 --> 00:51:40,210
basically that the frame is that it's not only front running companies for it.

423
00:51:40,210 --> 00:51:48,040
Speak about it and developing it as it is and processes. But if you have a mandatory due diligence, everybody need to start to do it.

424
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:59,050
But then on the voluntary basis, we have a lot of platforms. We have capabilities and best practises how what kind of a tools to use.

425
00:51:59,050 --> 00:52:03,990
How create efficient processes and metrics and data on things like that.

426
00:52:03,990 --> 00:52:12,220
And then we need to have a room for volunteer basis to really develop them basically, right?

427
00:52:12,220 --> 00:52:22,360
And again, taking the opportunity to to to look back with the delta to everyone that those who have in London

428
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:28,180
elsewhere have worked with with the CSR question sustainability question for 20 and 30 years.

429
00:52:28,180 --> 00:52:33,430
There is a kind of an absurdity in the situation that, you know,

430
00:52:33,430 --> 00:52:39,580
listening to all these different companies representatives in these podcasts who are really, you know,

431
00:52:39,580 --> 00:52:46,360
somehow longing for for regulation, saying that we really need EU legislation,

432
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:52,360
which if someone would have told me 20 years ago that we would be in this situation, I wouldn't really have believed it.

433
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,020
And now there are so many innocent saying this.

434
00:52:55,020 --> 00:53:01,810
And of course, it's logical because it's this risk based perspective and, as you said, levelling the playing field.

435
00:53:01,810 --> 00:53:06,940
But on the other hand, my question to you is that these kind of calls are not new.

436
00:53:06,940 --> 00:53:13,930
I remember very well in 2012, when they were roundtable discussions in different sectors in Finland,

437
00:53:13,930 --> 00:53:21,010
including retail, when and especially from retail, that at that point the message was, was the saying that, you know,

438
00:53:21,010 --> 00:53:28,390
we are already doing stuff we need kind of some kind of directive or regulation to level the playing field.

439
00:53:28,390 --> 00:53:34,780
But that's already, you know, nine years ago, eight years ago, nine years ago, and nothing really has happened there.

440
00:53:34,780 --> 00:53:43,390
So are we now supposed to believe that, you know, now that time has has come forward for this thing to happen?

441
00:53:43,390 --> 00:53:52,840
I think what I see, what has been different now than into the year back four four that that, like I said,

442
00:53:52,840 --> 00:54:01,150
that they're starting to have these national initiatives that helped and that has been pushing and working also as separate,

443
00:54:01,150 --> 00:54:10,670
maybe at the EU level, the awakening for the area that that that that maybe that is the best solution, definitely.

444
00:54:10,670 --> 00:54:18,190
And that that was a big, big, big area. And and I think this is the this is the card.

445
00:54:18,190 --> 00:54:22,120
We should be looking at it at this moment and it's it's a momentum.

446
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:28,840
But but then if it's not happening, then then let's come back and look at the other solutions also.

447
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:33,310
And and then then we play with them.

448
00:54:33,310 --> 00:54:43,150
Yeah, national initiatives. Absolutely. So hopefully that doesn't mean another eight or nine years, but something something more.

449
00:54:43,150 --> 00:54:53,770
Yes. So lastly, is there anything else you would like to wish to to raise because we haven't been able to to touch upon from your perspective?

450
00:54:53,770 --> 00:55:01,240
I think this was a very comprehensive, very interesting discussion. And I want I want to once more thank you for this opportunity.

451
00:55:01,240 --> 00:55:10,240
I think very much needed. And looking forward to hear the other other podcast, what their colleagues are saying there.

452
00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:14,860
So because the dialogue is needed, definitely. Absolutely.

453
00:55:14,860 --> 00:55:23,380
So again, my greatest thank you to you for coming here and talking about politics approach to this very complex,

454
00:55:23,380 --> 00:55:31,060
but at the same time, very intriguing and interesting questions around business and human rights and due diligence at large.

455
00:55:31,060 --> 00:55:37,240
So we wish you all the best for the spring and also for the for the coming coming years.

456
00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:42,550
Working with these these questions, and we also look forward to continuing that dialogue.

457
00:55:42,550 --> 00:55:47,140
Thanks for being here. And let's keep the dialogue going.

458
00:55:47,140 --> 00:56:09,348
Thank you.